Never realized how prevalent 'Card Bumping' was...

[oregonweim]

Probably due to the fact I have always been more of a football guy than baseball prospector. For those that don't know it is the act of re-submitting a previously graded card to try and improve one of the four sub-grades (with end goal of raising overall grading).

We have never really talked about that act on here so was curious to get feedback from our members on what they thought. Personally, while I do believe as consumers you need some recourse for a 'second opinion', the fact you basically have unlimited opportunities to resubmit, and will find (eventually) close grades will get bumped, that it questions the integrity of the whole grading market. Not counting all of the cases we have shown here previously of 'altered' cards (with Dan's SPA Cutler the latest) receiving exceptionally high grades, to raw/graded cards receiving grades you can't fathom (those that saw the Elite TOTC Young 9.5 w/10 auto know what I am talking about) these grading companies seem to be perilously close to that fine line of 'reporting the news' versus 'making the news'. Makes you wonder what you can believe or count on in the hobby these days...


As a quick aside, we have been discussing the good and fun at the nats, but we'll have an opportunity to discuss the darker side of the hobby later as well.

 

[ralegado]

Probably due to the fact I have always been more of a football guy than baseball prospector. For those that don't know it is the act of re-submitting a previously graded card to try and improve one of the four sub-grades (with end goal of raising overall grading).

We have never really talked about that act on here so was curious to get feedback from our members on what they thought. Personally, while I do believe as consumers you need some recourse for a 'second opinion', the fact you basically have unlimited opportunities to resubmit, and will find (eventually) close grades will get bumped, that it questions the integrity of the whole grading market. Not counting all of the cases we have shown here previously of 'altered' cards (with Dan's SPA Cutler the latest) receiving exceptionally high grades, to raw/graded cards receiving grades you can't fathom (those that saw the Elite TOTC Young 9.5 w/10 auto know what I am talking about) these grading companies seem to be perilously close to that fine line of 'reporting the news' versus 'making the news'. Makes you wonder what you can believe or count on in the hobby these days...


As a quick aside, we have been discussing the good and fun at the nats, but we'll have an opportunity to discuss the darker side of the hobby later as well.

and boy was there alot of the dark side of the hobby going on at nationals

 

[rainmanesq]

Sub bumping is not confined to baseball- it is just as prevalent in football and basketball. I saw 1 guy @ BGS trying to sub bump 6 86 Fleer Jordan BGS 9s. After 5 tries, BGS finally said ‘dude, these cards will NOT sub bump.’ Sub bumping was originally utilized mainly by trimmers to try and ‘correct’ their less than perfectly snip jobs and land them into 9.5/10 holders, but over the past 2-3 years, sub bumping has moved more into the ‘mainstream’.

Another issue that has become more common is ‘crossovers’- e.g., get a card holdered as mint by 1 grading co. and have the other grading co. cross it over. PSA 10s become BGS 9.5s usually, though I must say that @ National, only 2/4 of my ‘crossovers’ crossed. Interestingly, 1 of the cards that BGS did NOT cross was from a well-known alleged trimmer who used to be 1 of BGS’ biggest clients. No crossover was ‘sub bumped’- e.g., PSA 10s became BGS 9.5s; PSA 9s became BGS 9s. Some people crack their cards out before crossing over, but I rarely do- unless I feel the card has been vastly under graded.

I am mixed on sub bumping- on the 1 hand, some cards ARE undergraded as graders are human and DO make mistakes. In some cases, the difference between a very high 9 and low 9.5 is TINY. Cards graded during certain periods are well-known to either be graded MORE harshly uniformly or LESS harshly. On the other hand, grading cos. should theoretically be uniform so that if grader A deems a card a 9, graders B-Z will deem a card a 9. If I feel a card is undergraded/has a chance @ a sub bump, I will submit it 1x. What I have an issue w/is people who sub bump endlessly- last year, what started out as a high 01 BC Pujols BGS 9 was eventually sub bumped to a high BGS 10 after 6-7 tries at nearly all the major shows. I can see a card jumping from a 9 to 9.5 or 9.5 to 10, but a card jumping 1 FULL GRADE? Things like that make me pause.

While sub bumping is an issue worth debating, I have bigger qualms with trimming (rumor has it 1 of the better known alleged trimmers now has a new laser machine that presses down corners) and people who ‘restore’ cards (particularly vintage) by bleaching out card stock imperfections, fixing paper loss, recoloring borders, etc. I also have issues w/people who sell fake jerseys, patches, and photoshoot cards and who deal w/stolen merchandise. I have even bigger issues w/dealers who say ‘will get this auto authenticated as genuine NO MATTER WHAT’ (even if you know it’s questionable @ best). I have even bigger issues w/certain card cos. that knowingly authenticate items that they know are fake (David Wright GAI auto balls, anyone?) Just b/c you CAN make a $ by walking too closely to a line or crossing it does NOT mean you SHOULD make $ that way. Sub bumping was the least of the ‘dark side’ I saw at National.

The way I have reconciled the issue is to buy the CARD, not the holder. Just b/c something says GEM on it does NOT mean it is worthy of that grade. I have seen some very ugly gems and some very beautiful 9s. It is also important to remember that for some people (myself included), graded cards are a BUSINESS. Right or wrong, 9.5s and 10s fetch more $ and if you want to make a living @ cards, you generally MUST offer graded cards. If you are running a business and think it is in your best interests to sub bump, then that is alright w/me. If you ‘advance’ to trimming and ‘doctoring’ cards, you’ve crossed a line that I’ll never come close to.

 

[lisu]

The only reason why card bumping is prevelant is because BGS is crooked. They show the subgrades, so they know they can make more money by grading a lot of cards 1 subgrade away from Gem Mint.

 

[detox]

The Vince Young Gem 10 auto was a crock. Ive never seen such a crap auto get a 10 before.


Ill post my close ups of my Cutler in a second. You be the judge of the trim job

 

[lumm0x]

Hence the reason I own about as many graded cards as I have fingers. I have absolutely no premium in my soul for a raw card as opposed to a PSA 10 or whatever. The grades are a single person's opinion at best, possibly an influenced opinion at times. For me to pay double or triple the raw card value simply because a random person guesses it's in a certain shape is not something I value in the hobby and will never happen. Out of the handful of graded cards I do have a few have laughable grading scores considering the condition.