Basketball MICHAEL JORDAN is now a HALL OF FAMER.... BUT.....is he THE BEST EVER?

[orangejello727]

You also have to take into factor the position. We cant be comparing a Center to a PG. Its so tough to evaluate. Is Rebounding and defense more important than points and offense? Again, if the criterias and time spans are defined then maybe we can determine greatness. But asking for someone to declare greatness over a century is hard.

I remember SI greatest atheletes of all time had Jordan ranked #1 during a stint in basketball season. Then they re did it and this other person as #1 who played tennis, olympics, football and every other sport out there. I cant think of the name.

 

[ac-n-mike]

You cant technically determine who was the best player in the NBA uness you are able to take way the game has changed and developed. You also cant determine who the best is without setting the criterias properly. Thats why there will never be a true best. Because based on criterias, different players can be nominated as the best.

I think Jordan was a great player. I cant sit here and say he was the best. Best based on what? Selling shoes? Marketing. Most of you are the bi product of genius marketing. Marketing done by Nike and the NBA to capture your imagination is believing who was the best. Nothing more.

I dont know how anyone can sit there and compare Jordan to Wilt or Kobe to Jordan? They all played in different eras. The game was different in each era. Tougher or easier, each era was distinct. Russell has more rings than anyone. Jabbar won more MVPs than anyone, Wilt had more 50+ pt games than anyone and lead the lead in assists for a big man one year.

Each player has his own character and accolade. To sum up and say one player is the best and yet never had the Most, led the league or wasnt voted enough times cannot be the reason as to why a player was the best or wasnt the best.

I dont there this is a Best player in history. If there was, Id have to pick Oscar Robertson based on him averaging a triple double over an entire season, let alone almost averaging a triple double over his career.

Just an exert from someones opinion as to why Jordan wasnt the best.

This reason is pure bull, plain and simple. It is a desperate plea from a Jordan worshipper who realizes his goose is cooked. Here is why.

Let's compare Wilt Chamberlain to Jordan, for instance. Wilt has 56 NBA single-season records to Jordan's 4. Wilt nearly QUADRUPLED the number of 50 point games Jordan had in his career. Wilt led the league in assists, fg%, minutes and rebounds 29 times to Jordan's Zero. He owns 6 of the 9 70+ point games in history - Jordan has zero. He topped Jordan's best scoring season three times and Wilt's best scoring season is 13 ppg higher than Jordan's. Imagine Jordan leading the league in scoring at 33 ppg and the runner up having 20 ppg. Simply put, Wilt was in a class ahead of Jordan.

A Jordan fan will respond with, "Yeah, but Wilt only has 2 rings to Jordan's 6". Fine. That means stats mean very little and the much stronger emphasis is on championships. When one man so strongly overwhelms another in the area of statistical accomplishments, to say he is not better means stats are irrelevant. We are not talking about Kobe Bryant vs. Tracy McGrady or Charles Barkley vs. Karl Malone - guys with similar numbers. We are talking about a mismatch that rivals Shaq versus Greg Kite.

Therefore, to say Jordan is better is Wilt means stats and scoring are irrelevant. Since championships are the overwhelming factor, then we have to look at the man who prevented Wilt from winning more championships - Bill Russell. He has 11 championships to Jordan's 6. He has nearly TWICE the number of championships. Therefore, Bill Russell simply has to be better than Jordan. Let me repeat that - as impressive as Jordan's six titles are, it simply pales in comparison to Russell. To win 6 championships, it took Michael Jordan 14 years and Bill Russell only 7 years. Jordan played 15 seasons to Russell's 13, yet Russell has FIVE more championships than Jordan. Jordan and Magic Johnson COMBINED have as many rings as Bill Russell. Jordan and Magic defined "winning" for an entire generation! Yet, it takes both of them together to match the dominance of Bill Russell!

A Jordan fan cannot say that Jordan was a better individual player than Russell. After all, Russell AVERAGED over 22 rebounds per game. He is acknowledged by most to be the greatest defensive player in the history of the game, and to go along with that, he finished in the top 10 in the league in assists FOUR times (Jordan only did this once). He added 15 ppg to go along with this superior passing, rebounding, and defense.

The only recourse for a Jordan worshipper is to discount Russell's superior defense, rebounding, passing, and his overwhelming dominance in championships -- discount all of it -- and say "Jordan scored more points". However, as I showed above, points are irrelevant. Wilt Chamberlain dominated Jordan in points, and most other categories, but this was all discounted because of championships. You simply cannot say that Jordan's extra scoring somehow makes up for a 5 ring deficit after you just discounted Wilt's OVERWHELMING dominance of Jordan in scoring on account of a 4 ring deficit. And face it: it has to come down to points and rings because Jordan's passing and rebounding are simply unimpressive and his defense - while exceptional - is not on a plane higher than Chamberlain and Russell.

Therefore, there is no way that Michael Jordan can be the greatest player in history.

Are you kidding me? Wilt and Russell would be bench players in the 90s and 00s??

I wont even attempt to correct that one. :mad4:

Jordan never gave the rockets 2 rings. They rockets won them. Jordan was only as good as his team, so it wasnt all him during those 6 wins. Infact Jordan was never able to win a championship without Pippen. In your last sentence you state: Still there is no way to know, Yet in your first paragraph you state that you know for a fact that Jordan would dominate in any era while putting down Wilt and Russell for their time.

Can you provide the "Facts" behind how you know for certain Jordan would fair in the 60s as a player and in the 21 century as a player? Where can you provide evidence that Jordan would dominate? Im just wondering because Jordan never played in the 60, 70s and past 2003.

You also have to take into factor the position. We cant be comparing a Center to a PG. Its so tough to evaluate. Is Rebounding and defense more important than points and offense? Again, if the criterias and time spans are defined then maybe we can determine greatness. But asking for someone to declare greatness over a century is hard.

I remember SI greatest atheletes of all time had Jordan ranked #1 during a stint in basketball season. Then they re did it and this other person as #1 who played tennis, olympics, football and every other sport out there. I cant think of the name.

I THINK it's safe to assume that is a vote for Option 2

"it's TOO TOUGH TO COMPARE "

 

[meloman315]

well i am going to say wilt chamberlain
all of those championships,mvp awards,scoring titles,and all star games
here is his career stats:
Wilt Chamberlain Statistics - Basketball-Reference.com

but how many guys were wilts size when he played? not many. mj did all that at 6'6"

 

[phillysports34579]

do this poll in 15-20 year and the results will be much differnt once lebron retires it will be hard to say weather he or mj is the greatest of all time

 

[ac-n-mike]

do this poll in 15-20 year and the results will be much differnt once lebron retires it will be hard to say weather he or mj is the greatest of all time

can we let Lebron win ONE title before we start comparing him to MJ and his 6......

 

[Steve_O_21]

can we let Lebron win ONE title before we start comparing him to MJ and his 6......

^^^^

Guess how many GAMES Lebron has won in the Finals...

ZERO!

He's made it to one Finals appearance and had his team SWEPT.

Jordan >.....

 

[ac-n-mike]

Comparing KOBE to MJ I can understand... a little... he has atelast won 3 Championships etc.... still a CRAZY argument in my opinion...but at elast there is SOME argument....but Lebron? He hasnt done anything yet... he is GREAT no doubt but he is NOT a proven winner until he gets a few rings...

It's the same with Karl Malone in my opinion possibly the greatest Power Forward EVER, as far as STATS go... BUT I would take Tim Duncan over him ANY DAY because he is a WINNER!

 

[heath23]

Yeah, But Lebron Made It To The Finals Alot Quicker Than Mj Did, And Give Lebron The Supporting Cast That Jordan Had And He Might Win 10 Titles. Agian I Think Mj Is The Greatest Of All Time, But Lebron Is Sure Doing Some Special Things For His Age. Jury Will Be Out For A While On Lebron As Far As Comparing To Mj . We Will Have To Wait A Lot Of Years Until Lebron Is Done To See How He Stacks Up (and Titles Will Count). I Do Think That Jordan Could Have Dominated In Any Era , However I Think Wilt And Russell May Not Have Been So Dominate At The Center Position In The Late 80's And Throughout The 90's As They Were In Thier Perspective Eras, They Deffinatley Would Be Star Players Because Of Thier Size But I Don't Think They Had Too Many Challenges In Thier Eras With The Size They Were , Compared To The Competition They Faced. I Compare Wilt's 100 Point Game To Me Being 5 Foot 8 Inches Tall And Playing Agianst 7-8 Year Olds Who Are Not Even 4 Feet Tall, Pass Me The Ball Inside And I Will Score Every Time. There Was No Competition To Stop Him From Doing It. I Bet Shaq Would Have Held Him In Check . Even Today Wilt Might Have A Tought Time Even Posting Up A Guy Like Dwight Howard To Even Get The Touches He Would Need To Be Dominate. This Topic Will Always Be Debated Because The Game Has Changed , And I Truely Think That The Overall Game Is Faster And More Skilled Today Than 40 Years Ago, And Most Players Today Have Evolved To Being Faster,bigger And More Skillfull . If You Do Not Believe That We As Humans Evolve Into Better And Faster, Then Why Does The 100 Meter World Record Keep Getting Shattered Ever 4 Years At The Olympics. Its Because We Evolve And Become Better. Maybe Not You Personally , But The Best Of The Best Keep Getting Better. And Maybe When It Is All Said And Done Lebron James May Have Some Votes? He Is A Freak Of Nature And I Would Have Loved To See Him 1 On 1 Against M.j. (in His Prime) For The Thrill Of It. Just My Opinions !

 

[phillysports34579]

yea heath i agree completly.

also if we are talking about the best winner ever it is bill russel i thought we were talking about best skilled player and in my opinion in 20 years that will be lebron but who knows

 

[orangejello727]

Comparing KOBE to MJ I can understand... a little... he has atelast won 3 Championships etc.... still a CRAZY argument in my opinion...but at elast there is SOME argument....but Lebron? He hasnt done anything yet... he is GREAT no doubt but he is NOT a proven winner until he gets a few rings...

It's the same with Karl Malone in my opinion possibly the greatest Power Forward EVER, as far as STATS go... BUT I would take Tim Duncan over him ANY DAY because he is a WINNER!

See this is the part I dont get. I not singling you out, but all Jordan fans in general. They always turn a blind eye and give stats the ONLY favor Jordan, hence why they claim him to be the best.

You posted the following...

Comparing KOBE to MJ I can understand... a little... he has atelast won 3 Championships etc

he is GREAT no doubt but he is NOT a proven winner until he gets a few rings...

There was also a comment on waiting till Lebron wins a ring before throwing his name in there.

Fine. So be it. Kobe only won 3 and Lebron has won none. Jordan won 6 and therefore he is better. Then how about Russell? He won way more rings, therefore he must be better than Jordan by that logic? But a Jordan fan will say no, because its not all about winning rings but other stats as well. Fine if its about other stats then stop discrediting guys like Kobe and Lebron as not being the best just because they dont have atleast 6 rings since your prevous notion suggest that rings dont make a player great.

I have a pet peeve about this. Winning has nothing to do with an individual player. It has to do with the team, and the teams they play. A great player will add to this team. He will score, defend, hell maybe a great player doesnt have to be on court. He could be there in the locker room. A leader doesnt have to show stats inorder to be vital to a team. Look at phil Jackson. We could easily sit here and say Phil Jackson is who made Jordan and the Bulls win 6. Because without him, they never won one. Jordan never won another without pippen. Yet we want to honor him as the best ever. Best at what? Being a winner amongst other winners?

 

[orangejello727]

Yeah, But Lebron Made It To The Finals Alot Quicker Than Mj Did, And Give Lebron The Supporting Cast That Jordan Had And He Might Win 10 Titles. Agian I Think Mj Is The Greatest Of All Time, But Lebron Is Sure Doing Some Special Things For His Age. Jury Will Be Out For A While On Lebron As Far As Comparing To Mj . We Will Have To Wait A Lot Of Years Until Lebron Is Done To See How He Stacks Up (and Titles Will Count). I Do Think That Jordan Could Have Dominated In Any Era , However I Think Wilt And Russell May Not Have Been So Dominate At The Center Position In The Late 80's And Throughout The 90's As They Were In Thier Perspective Eras, They Deffinatley Would Be Star Players Because Of Thier Size But I Don't Think They Had Too Many Challenges In Thier Eras With The Size They Were , Compared To The Competition They Faced. I Compare Wilt's 100 Point Game To Me Being 5 Foot 8 Inches Tall And Playing Agianst 7-8 Year Olds Who Are Not Even 4 Feet Tall, Pass Me The Ball Inside And I Will Score Every Time. There Was No Competition To Stop Him From Doing It. I Bet Shaq Would Have Held Him In Check . Even Today Wilt Might Have A Tought Time Even Posting Up A Guy Like Dwight Howard To Even Get The Touches He Would Need To Be Dominate. This Topic Will Always Be Debated Because The Game Has Changed , And I Truely Think That The Overall Game Is Faster And More Skilled Today Than 40 Years Ago, And Most Players Today Have Evolved To Being Faster,bigger And More Skillfull . If You Do Not Believe That We As Humans Evolve Into Better And Faster, Then Why Does The 100 Meter World Record Keep Getting Shattered Ever 4 Years At The Olympics. Its Because We Evolve And Become Better. Maybe Not You Personally , But The Best Of The Best Keep Getting Better. And Maybe When It Is All Said And Done Lebron James May Have Some Votes? He Is A Freak Of Nature And I Would Have Loved To See Him 1 On 1 Against M.j. (in His Prime) For The Thrill Of It. Just My Opinions !

Being the youngest or quickest to accomplishing means nothing. The fact that guys like Kobe, Garnett, Mcgrady and Lebron came into the league straight from highschool, skipping college (I think its a sellout), they obviously will have a head start. Being the fastest to finish or get to something counts for nothing unless its a race. And the game of basketball is not a race.

Can you prove to me that Jordan would have dominated in 60s as well as the 70s and today? Because he never played in any of those eras. And when you discredit those era as being different times, different players and different rules, how can you justify someone can dominate in any era outside of his own without taking into factor all the difference you advocate?? You cant! Simply put, you cannot sit there and try and sell someone the theory that Jordan would have been the best basketball player 100 yrs ago, or 100 years from now.

Your point on we progress (We dont evolve) through time is true. We do get better and smarter. But thats not the case for time and everything. Take for example cars. In 1967 Ford put out a Shelby GT 500 Mustang. 42 years later that car will till cream a ton of cars in the qtr mile today. Maybe time doesnt put out better, faster, smarter things. Its dependant on the matter and criteria and not the product.

The single best player doesnt exist in team sports. They all have great attributes but at the end of the day its a team that wins games. Its a team mate that passes you a ball to get a point, its a teammate you must pass to inorder to get an assist. It takes a whole team to get a ring. It takes a coach to lead you. It take a rebounder and a defender to make sure you dont lose. How can we sit here and figure out that 1 man is the greatest based on the fact that it took more than just him to garner his own stats?

 

[208963]

Being the youngest or quickest to accomplishing means nothing. The fact that guys like Kobe, Garnett, Mcgrady and Lebron came into the league straight from highschool, skipping college (I think its a sellout), they obviously will have a head start. Being the fastest to finish or get to something counts for nothing unless its a race. And the game of basketball is not a race.

Can you prove to me that Jordan would have dominated in 60s as well as the 70s and today? Because he never played in any of those eras. And when you discredit those era as being different times, different players and different rules, how can you justify someone can dominate in any era outside of his own without taking into factor all the difference you advocate?? You cant! Simply put, you cannot sit there and try and sell someone the theory that Jordan would have been the best basketball player 100 yrs ago, or 100 years from now.

Your point on we progress (We dont evolve) through time is true. We do get better and smarter. But thats not the case for time and everything. Take for example cars. In 1967 Ford put out a Shelby GT 500 Mustang. 42 years later that car will till cream a ton of cars in the qtr mile today. Maybe time doesnt put out better, faster, smarter things. Its dependant on the matter and criteria and not the product.

The single best player doesnt exist in team sports. They all have great attributes but at the end of the day its a team that wins games. Its a team mate that passes you a ball to get a point, its a teammate you must pass to inorder to get an assist. It takes a whole team to get a ring. It takes a coach to lead you. It take a rebounder and a defender to make sure you dont lose. How can we sit here and figure out that 1 man is the greatest based on the fact that it took more than just him to garner his own stats?

think i may have said this already but good to see you here.

tim/208963

 

[heath23]

As I Stated My Opinion Is Mj Is The Greatest, And As Far As The Young Guys Coming Straight Out Of High School And Having An Advantage. Thier Are Just As Many If Not More Flops That Have Jumped To The Pros From High School And Are No Longer In The Nba, So If Those Guys Have The Talent To Do It And Then Become Stars On Top Of It, Then How Can You Deny Any Of Them Thier Fare Shake If They Go On And Become One Of The Greatest Of All Time. They Were Good Enough Not Only To Make It ,but Become Special Players So You Can't Say They Had An Un-fair Start. Moses Malone Came Right Out Of High School Long Before Any Of Those Young Guys You Talk About, So Jordan Could Have Done It Too If He Had Chosen Too. I Am Not Saying Any Of These Young Guys Are As Great As Mj( Or Wilt Or Russell), But I Have An Open Enough Mind To Let The Door Open For Them To Maybe One Day Get There?

 

[heath23]

I Do Agree With You On The Whole Team Thing , But I Just Invision Mj Playing Back In That Era And Dominating As An Individual Player.

 

[ewilkens]

As I Stated My Opinion Is Mj Is The Greatest, And As Far As The Young Guys Coming Straight Out Of High School And Having An Advantage. Thier Are Just As Many If Not More Flops That Have Jumped To The Pros From High School And Are No Longer In The Nba, So If Those Guys Have The Talent To Do It And Then Become Stars On Top Of It, Then How Can You Deny Any Of Them Thier Fare Shake If They Go On And Become One Of The Greatest Of All Time. They Were Good Enough Not Only To Make It ,but Become Special Players So You Can't Say They Had An Un-fair Start. Moses Malone Came Right Out Of High School Long Before Any Of Those Young Guys You Talk About, So Jordan Could Have Done It Too If He Had Chosen Too. I Am Not Saying Any Of These Young Guys Are As Great As Mj( Or Wilt Or Russell), But I Have An Open Enough Mind To Let The Door Open For Them To Maybe One Day Get There?

why do you type with the first letter of every word capitalized? It's kind of annoying to read.

My pet peeve aside, you obviously missed the point about the "unfair advantage" to those who come into the league early.
That advantage pertains to them being "the youngest" to do something, which is a highly overrated comparison.

Saying LeBron was the youngest to go to the finals, or McGrady was the youngest to bolt for free agency or whatever, is asinine, b/c they came into the league younger than others. It's about the longevity that makes greatness. Not about how old you were when something in your career happened.